Mar 24, 2013, 3:08 AM
Hi ltctech,
Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback. I really appreciate your comments.
NOTE: There were a few other posts in this thread I have yet to respond to, but I'll get to those after this @ltctech response.
I agree, and submitting a patch is not expected. In general I'd rather just get a descent sample demonstrating how to reproduce the problem, and as quickly as possible we will implement the fix. We're good at this.
That said, "user code contributions" are not limited to core framework submissions. Posting tutorials, demos, small code samples, personal blog posts, answering questions in the forums, or answering questions on Stackoverflow are all very real and simple ways for the community to support and give back to the project. I certainly never expected much from the community, and I'm grateful to those that have supported us.
I guess this gets back to one of my original points... we're doing a lot of giving and seemingly getting very little in return. This giving has a real cost attached to it. Things would be different if we saw a return on that investment.
If a developer starts a project with Ext.NET Community, I rarely see a case where they eventually cross over to eventually release with the Ext.NET Pro build. They almost always stick with the Community release. Those same developers also generally disappear and never contribute back to the community.
The developers who choose Ext.NET Pro are almost always far more engaged in the community. To the best of my knowledge, any community blog posts that have been made have all been made by Ext.NET Pro members. They are invested in the product, they want to see it succeed and they continually give back. Honestly the difference in support between the groups is striking.
Re: Stackoverflow,
There are some Ext.NET tagged posts on Stackoverflow, and we answer those too. Very few community members step up to the plate to answer. I answer what I can. The quality of the questions asked is also sometimes very poor, so I don't fault anyone for not wanting to answer those.
Many times the developer will post the question in the Ext.NET forums, then post the same question in Stackoverflow, then send one of the support team a private message asking to respond "ASAP", then emails support@ext.net. Ya, those guys are awesome to deal with. We typically will answer the question on forums.ext.net and post on a link in the Stackoverflow comments back to the answer.
On the Ext.NET forums, our priority is to answer Premium Member asked questions first. These need to asked on the Ext.NET forums, which in turn obviously results in most of the best content being posted to http://forums.ext.net/. If more community (non-premium) questions were asked on Stackoverflow, we would answer more.
Yes, this might be an issue. I'll make four comments:
1. Purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license is not required. You are free to continue using your existing Ext.NET Community release.
2. The base "license only" price of Ext.NET Pro is $329. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community member, you're also not a Premium Member, so you would probably also not be purchasing the Bundle (license + premium support) option.
3. I think I mentioned this in a previous response, but if someone is really put in a tight spot with this policy change, they need to let me know (geoff@ext.net). I have a lot of flexibility and options to play with. If it comes right down to it, I will will personally purchase an Ext.NET Pro license for you.
4. We can issue temporary keys. If you need an extra 30|45|60 days to buy some time before purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license, just let me know.
If management makes this business decision and they do not see the value in using Ext.NET, then I'm fine with this. Again, no one is forcing anyone to use Ext.NET. If the value isn't there, I would expect developers to move on to other options.
This move is opportunistic, but not in a greedy Scrooge McDuck way. The change is required because we need the financial support. We want to grow, we want to advertise, we want to invest heavily in the product. The current model is making it a challenge to pull off any of those goals. We haven't seen the payback for providing the Community license. The benefits that were supposto to be had now need to come from another source.
We need some of the Community users to step up and purchase an Ext.NET Pro license. If you do, you will have a direct impact upon the quality, success and long term viability of Ext.NET. You can purchase a license in the /store/.
Very few (if any) developers dive in and modify the source code. We don't recommend this either. Generally you should only need to modify the source code to fix a defect. If that's the case, then let us know and we'll implement the fix in the main repository to the benefit of all users.
If you want to modify or extend functionality, then inheritance is the answer. The full source code will continue to be available to Premium Support Subscription members. You don't need the source code to inherit and extend Ext.NET. We also do not obfuscate the source code, so tools such as Reflector work great for exploring the assemblies.
I should also make the point again that installing and testing Ext.NET is extremely easy. We do not time-bomb the product, we don't ask for your email address and we don't force you create an account. You can install literally within seconds using Nuget and develop/test for as long as you want.
I personally run into scenarios all the time where I'm thinking of using a particular piece of software for a job, install the demo, run a few tests, then drop the project for a while. I'll come back a month or two later when things startup again, only to find the demo was time bombed and there's either no opportunity to extend the demo, or it's a major hassle. With Ext.NET you will not have this problem. Install the product, come back three months later and it'll continue to function without limitation. I think this flexibility is worth a lot, and generally alleviates many barriers developers have when analyzing framework options.
Developers (and/or management) need to make a value decision. For the price of purchasing a license key, is the value there? If they decide the value isn't there, that's ok. No hard feelings and we go our separate ways.
Yes, I run into this mentality all the time. Again, if developers (or the people paying their wages) don't see the value in using Ext.NET, then all we can do is continue to invest in our project and hopefully someday build something so awesome that the value proposition is obvious. I see this as just more incentive for us to work smarter and improve to the point where we can demonstrate that the value is there.
Using jQuery + plugins can be a great solution. As with many things, it "just depends". Passing 1MB of ViewState back-and-forth is never the answer though, and we've gone to great lengths to solve this problem in Ext.NET.
Will this backfire? Maybe. We're lean and flexible, so I'm confident we can deal with any outcome.
A few more points:
1. If you're an existing Ext.NET Pro license holder, nothing changes for you.
2. If you're an existing Premium member, nothing changes for you.
3. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community user and you want to upgrade to the next release, you are welcome to install Ext.NET Pro and purchase a license key.
4. If you would like to use Ext.NET, but do not have the budget, or legitimately cannot afford an Ext.NET Pro license, email me (geoff@ext.net) and we'll work something out.
5. If you have publicly released an open-source project using the AGPL Ext.NET Community license, email me (geoff@ext.net). Currently I know of no open-source software projects that fall under this scenario, but if they're out there, I will go above and beyond to figure out a solution.
Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback. I really appreciate your comments.
NOTE: There were a few other posts in this thread I have yet to respond to, but I'll get to those after this @ltctech response.
User code contributions may be minimal due to the nature of Ext.Net.
That said, "user code contributions" are not limited to core framework submissions. Posting tutorials, demos, small code samples, personal blog posts, answering questions in the forums, or answering questions on Stackoverflow are all very real and simple ways for the community to support and give back to the project. I certainly never expected much from the community, and I'm grateful to those that have supported us.
I guess this gets back to one of my original points... we're doing a lot of giving and seemingly getting very little in return. This giving has a real cost attached to it. Things would be different if we saw a return on that investment.
If a developer starts a project with Ext.NET Community, I rarely see a case where they eventually cross over to eventually release with the Ext.NET Pro build. They almost always stick with the Community release. Those same developers also generally disappear and never contribute back to the community.
The developers who choose Ext.NET Pro are almost always far more engaged in the community. To the best of my knowledge, any community blog posts that have been made have all been made by Ext.NET Pro members. They are invested in the product, they want to see it succeed and they continually give back. Honestly the difference in support between the groups is striking.
Re: Stackoverflow,
There are some Ext.NET tagged posts on Stackoverflow, and we answer those too. Very few community members step up to the plate to answer. I answer what I can. The quality of the questions asked is also sometimes very poor, so I don't fault anyone for not wanting to answer those.
Many times the developer will post the question in the Ext.NET forums, then post the same question in Stackoverflow, then send one of the support team a private message asking to respond "ASAP", then emails support@ext.net. Ya, those guys are awesome to deal with. We typically will answer the question on forums.ext.net and post on a link in the Stackoverflow comments back to the answer.
On the Ext.NET forums, our priority is to answer Premium Member asked questions first. These need to asked on the Ext.NET forums, which in turn obviously results in most of the best content being posted to http://forums.ext.net/. If more community (non-premium) questions were asked on Stackoverflow, we would answer more.
Leaving the community would put community licensed developers in a tight spot. Suddenly developers working on small internal CRUD projects would need to license themselves at $500/seat. A cost they probably haven’t budgeted.
1. Purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license is not required. You are free to continue using your existing Ext.NET Community release.
2. The base "license only" price of Ext.NET Pro is $329. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community member, you're also not a Premium Member, so you would probably also not be purchasing the Bundle (license + premium support) option.
3. I think I mentioned this in a previous response, but if someone is really put in a tight spot with this policy change, they need to let me know (geoff@ext.net). I have a lot of flexibility and options to play with. If it comes right down to it, I will will personally purchase an Ext.NET Pro license for you.
4. We can issue temporary keys. If you need an extra 30|45|60 days to buy some time before purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license, just let me know.
Never underestimate the wisdom of management that compares a cookie cutter MSDN Pro with VS subscription at $800 (renewal) with a unique web UI framework at $500. This is especially true at non-IT companies with small IT shops.
Closing source right before an update that brings many performance and bug fixes in ExtJS 4.2 may also be seen as somewhat opportunistic.
We need some of the Community users to step up and purchase an Ext.NET Pro license. If you do, you will have a direct impact upon the quality, success and long term viability of Ext.NET. You can purchase a license in the /store/.
The original appeal of Ext.Net for me was the AGPL license. I could try it out, modify the code if I didn’t like what it was doing, all without having to put money down.
If you want to modify or extend functionality, then inheritance is the answer. The full source code will continue to be available to Premium Support Subscription members. You don't need the source code to inherit and extend Ext.NET. We also do not obfuscate the source code, so tools such as Reflector work great for exploring the assemblies.
I should also make the point again that installing and testing Ext.NET is extremely easy. We do not time-bomb the product, we don't ask for your email address and we don't force you create an account. You can install literally within seconds using Nuget and develop/test for as long as you want.
I personally run into scenarios all the time where I'm thinking of using a particular piece of software for a job, install the demo, run a few tests, then drop the project for a while. I'll come back a month or two later when things startup again, only to find the demo was time bombed and there's either no opportunity to extend the demo, or it's a major hassle. With Ext.NET you will not have this problem. Install the product, come back three months later and it'll continue to function without limitation. I think this flexibility is worth a lot, and generally alleviates many barriers developers have when analyzing framework options.
Had Ext.Net not been truly open source when I first took a look at it, I probably wouldn’t have used it.
The prevailing (misinformed) opinion of some of my colleagues is that jQuery UI plus 10+ plugins with stock ASP.NET including its 1MB viewstate is a much better option.
Using jQuery + plugins can be a great solution. As with many things, it "just depends". Passing 1MB of ViewState back-and-forth is never the answer though, and we've gone to great lengths to solve this problem in Ext.NET.
As an end note, I do understand that developers deserve to be paid. Companies need to make money to pay developers. And that money has to come from somewhere. The question remains though; how effective will this latest announcement be at achieving the desired goal?
A few more points:
1. If you're an existing Ext.NET Pro license holder, nothing changes for you.
2. If you're an existing Premium member, nothing changes for you.
3. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community user and you want to upgrade to the next release, you are welcome to install Ext.NET Pro and purchase a license key.
4. If you would like to use Ext.NET, but do not have the budget, or legitimately cannot afford an Ext.NET Pro license, email me (geoff@ext.net) and we'll work something out.
5. If you have publicly released an open-source project using the AGPL Ext.NET Community license, email me (geoff@ext.net). Currently I know of no open-source software projects that fall under this scenario, but if they're out there, I will go above and beyond to figure out a solution.