Ext.NET Community License changes

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  1. #11
    Hi ltctech,

    Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback. I really appreciate your comments.

    NOTE: There were a few other posts in this thread I have yet to respond to, but I'll get to those after this @ltctech response.

    User code contributions may be minimal due to the nature of Ext.Net.
    I agree, and submitting a patch is not expected. In general I'd rather just get a descent sample demonstrating how to reproduce the problem, and as quickly as possible we will implement the fix. We're good at this.

    That said, "user code contributions" are not limited to core framework submissions. Posting tutorials, demos, small code samples, personal blog posts, answering questions in the forums, or answering questions on Stackoverflow are all very real and simple ways for the community to support and give back to the project. I certainly never expected much from the community, and I'm grateful to those that have supported us.

    I guess this gets back to one of my original points... we're doing a lot of giving and seemingly getting very little in return. This giving has a real cost attached to it. Things would be different if we saw a return on that investment.

    If a developer starts a project with Ext.NET Community, I rarely see a case where they eventually cross over to eventually release with the Ext.NET Pro build. They almost always stick with the Community release. Those same developers also generally disappear and never contribute back to the community.

    The developers who choose Ext.NET Pro are almost always far more engaged in the community. To the best of my knowledge, any community blog posts that have been made have all been made by Ext.NET Pro members. They are invested in the product, they want to see it succeed and they continually give back. Honestly the difference in support between the groups is striking.

    Re: Stackoverflow,

    There are some Ext.NET tagged posts on Stackoverflow, and we answer those too. Very few community members step up to the plate to answer. I answer what I can. The quality of the questions asked is also sometimes very poor, so I don't fault anyone for not wanting to answer those.

    Many times the developer will post the question in the Ext.NET forums, then post the same question in Stackoverflow, then send one of the support team a private message asking to respond "ASAP", then emails support@ext.net. Ya, those guys are awesome to deal with. We typically will answer the question on forums.ext.net and post on a link in the Stackoverflow comments back to the answer.

    On the Ext.NET forums, our priority is to answer Premium Member asked questions first. These need to asked on the Ext.NET forums, which in turn obviously results in most of the best content being posted to http://forums.ext.net/. If more community (non-premium) questions were asked on Stackoverflow, we would answer more.

    Leaving the community would put community licensed developers in a tight spot. Suddenly developers working on small internal CRUD projects would need to license themselves at $500/seat. A cost they probably haven’t budgeted.
    Yes, this might be an issue. I'll make four comments:

    1. Purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license is not required. You are free to continue using your existing Ext.NET Community release.

    2. The base "license only" price of Ext.NET Pro is $329. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community member, you're also not a Premium Member, so you would probably also not be purchasing the Bundle (license + premium support) option.

    3. I think I mentioned this in a previous response, but if someone is really put in a tight spot with this policy change, they need to let me know (geoff@ext.net). I have a lot of flexibility and options to play with. If it comes right down to it, I will will personally purchase an Ext.NET Pro license for you.

    4. We can issue temporary keys. If you need an extra 30|45|60 days to buy some time before purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license, just let me know.

    Never underestimate the wisdom of management that compares a cookie cutter MSDN Pro with VS subscription at $800 (renewal) with a unique web UI framework at $500. This is especially true at non-IT companies with small IT shops.
    If management makes this business decision and they do not see the value in using Ext.NET, then I'm fine with this. Again, no one is forcing anyone to use Ext.NET. If the value isn't there, I would expect developers to move on to other options.

    Closing source right before an update that brings many performance and bug fixes in ExtJS 4.2 may also be seen as somewhat opportunistic.
    This move is opportunistic, but not in a greedy Scrooge McDuck way. The change is required because we need the financial support. We want to grow, we want to advertise, we want to invest heavily in the product. The current model is making it a challenge to pull off any of those goals. We haven't seen the payback for providing the Community license. The benefits that were supposto to be had now need to come from another source.

    We need some of the Community users to step up and purchase an Ext.NET Pro license. If you do, you will have a direct impact upon the quality, success and long term viability of Ext.NET. You can purchase a license in the /store/.

    The original appeal of Ext.Net for me was the AGPL license. I could try it out, modify the code if I didn’t like what it was doing, all without having to put money down.
    Very few (if any) developers dive in and modify the source code. We don't recommend this either. Generally you should only need to modify the source code to fix a defect. If that's the case, then let us know and we'll implement the fix in the main repository to the benefit of all users.

    If you want to modify or extend functionality, then inheritance is the answer. The full source code will continue to be available to Premium Support Subscription members. You don't need the source code to inherit and extend Ext.NET. We also do not obfuscate the source code, so tools such as Reflector work great for exploring the assemblies.

    I should also make the point again that installing and testing Ext.NET is extremely easy. We do not time-bomb the product, we don't ask for your email address and we don't force you create an account. You can install literally within seconds using Nuget and develop/test for as long as you want.

    I personally run into scenarios all the time where I'm thinking of using a particular piece of software for a job, install the demo, run a few tests, then drop the project for a while. I'll come back a month or two later when things startup again, only to find the demo was time bombed and there's either no opportunity to extend the demo, or it's a major hassle. With Ext.NET you will not have this problem. Install the product, come back three months later and it'll continue to function without limitation. I think this flexibility is worth a lot, and generally alleviates many barriers developers have when analyzing framework options.

    Had Ext.Net not been truly open source when I first took a look at it, I probably wouldn’t have used it.
    Developers (and/or management) need to make a value decision. For the price of purchasing a license key, is the value there? If they decide the value isn't there, that's ok. No hard feelings and we go our separate ways.

    The prevailing (misinformed) opinion of some of my colleagues is that jQuery UI plus 10+ plugins with stock ASP.NET including its 1MB viewstate is a much better option.
    Yes, I run into this mentality all the time. Again, if developers (or the people paying their wages) don't see the value in using Ext.NET, then all we can do is continue to invest in our project and hopefully someday build something so awesome that the value proposition is obvious. I see this as just more incentive for us to work smarter and improve to the point where we can demonstrate that the value is there.

    Using jQuery + plugins can be a great solution. As with many things, it "just depends". Passing 1MB of ViewState back-and-forth is never the answer though, and we've gone to great lengths to solve this problem in Ext.NET.

    As an end note, I do understand that developers deserve to be paid. Companies need to make money to pay developers. And that money has to come from somewhere. The question remains though; how effective will this latest announcement be at achieving the desired goal?
    Will this backfire? Maybe. We're lean and flexible, so I'm confident we can deal with any outcome.

    A few more points:

    1. If you're an existing Ext.NET Pro license holder, nothing changes for you.

    2. If you're an existing Premium member, nothing changes for you.

    3. If you're an existing Ext.NET Community user and you want to upgrade to the next release, you are welcome to install Ext.NET Pro and purchase a license key.

    4. If you would like to use Ext.NET, but do not have the budget, or legitimately cannot afford an Ext.NET Pro license, email me (geoff@ext.net) and we'll work something out.

    5. If you have publicly released an open-source project using the AGPL Ext.NET Community license, email me (geoff@ext.net). Currently I know of no open-source software projects that fall under this scenario, but if they're out there, I will go above and beyond to figure out a solution.
    Last edited by geoffrey.mcgill; Mar 28, 2016 at 2:37 AM.
    Geoffrey McGill
    Founder
  2. #12
    @OriCoder

    If you have a lot of enthusiastic programmers, using and promoting the framework you will see the feedback here an on places like stackoverflow.
    We do have a lot of enthusiastic developers using Ext.NET, but the majority of them are Ext.NET Pro members.

    What I am saying is you need more marketing, to build a bigger community
    Agreed and we're trying.

    I ditched 5months of work in jquery and jqgrid as it was clunky and a real fight everyday to get a bit done, I now have a professional looking web based application that can be used by our client and it only took a month to redo.
    Can we use this as a testimonial? This sounds like a great story, and I would like to know more.

    I say restrict the paid forums to paid members only so paying members are not paying for the community support,
    I'm not really interested in doing this. I feel the forums should be open and readable to everyone. Only Premium Members can post a new question in the Premium Help forums, but all members can read and even post follow-up responses. This ensures the broader community can still benefit from the Premium discussions.

    switch the community version to be one step behind the pro version, its mature enough to be useful anyway and will still let people get to know the framework.
    This would make support very tough for us. One possibility is only releasing a Community version on each major release, such as 1.0, 2.0, etc. Once the Ext.NET 3.0 release is available, we'll make this decision.

    When I am paying for support I just want to post an example problem get an answer and move on with the dev work, and this you have to pay for, it should not be free.
    Agreed. This is the level of support we provide to Premium Members. The process works well.

    maybe even close the community forums to get the guys to start posting a bit more to stack, get the support staff to help out a little to get things going.
    I'm not willing to close the Community forums, and we will absolutely continue to answer questions on Stackoverflow.
    Geoffrey McGill
    Founder
  3. #13
    @Yevgeniy

    2) Which libraries do you mean? Ext.JS is a javascript library, - and Sencha must deliver it with the full sources, because it is a pure javascript, which you can't use otherways. :)
    Anyone can download the full ext.js sources.
    There are two version of Ext JS:

    1. GPL - Open-source version which was included in the Ext.NET Community release. This library is "free" to use, although the license terms and conditions are generally not appropriate for commercial projects.

    2. Commercial - Included with Ext.NET Pro. Including Ext JS Commercial in Ext.NET Pro is not free for us. A substantial portion of the Ext.NET Pro license fee is a sub-licensing fee paid directly to Sencha.

    3) I think, before you buy any library, it is always a good idea to look at it's sources. If you see the sources, you can justify about it's quality, even if you have never seen and used it before.
    Of course this is a nice to have, but not always possible.
    Last edited by geoffrey.mcgill; Mar 25, 2013 at 2:18 PM.
    Geoffrey McGill
    Founder
  4. #14
    I think the main reason why community edition users don't contribute is that they can not (or don't know how).
    Demos and source codes on github (which is by the way now closed!) are obsolete, so they don't know if bug/feature is in current version or not.

    For example:
    If example explorer is separate project on github, I have some demos which I'd like to share - using ext.net with webapi and odata, how to handle datetime etc. But nowdays I don't know how to share/contribute.

    Maybe you could inspire by the umbraco cms system (www.umbraco.org). It's open source, and has very friendly and helpfull comunity, which helps move it forward. They make money by payed learning tutorials, extra tools and premium support.
  5. #15
    Hi @PetrSnobelt,

    Thank you very much for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetrSnobelt View Post
    I think the main reason why community edition users don't contribute is that they can not (or don't know how).
    Demos and source codes on github (which is by the way now closed!) are obsolete, so they don't know if bug/feature is in current version or not.
    Well, a good bug/feature report is enough for this case. A patch is excellent, but not required. We always can check it with the latest sources.

    Moreover, there are many other kinds of contributions.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffrey.mcgill View Post
    I agree, and submitting a patch is not expected. In general I'd rather just get a descent sample demonstrating how to reproduce the problem, and as quickly as possible we will implement the fix. We're good at this.

    That said, "user code contributions" are not limited to core framework submissions. Posting tutorials, demos, small code samples, personal blog posts, answering questions in the forums, or answering questions on Stackoverflow are all very real and simple ways for the community to support and give back to the project. I certainly never expected much from the community, and I'm grateful to those that have supported us.
    So, contributions are not limited to bug reports and feature requests.

    Quote Originally Posted by PetrSnobelt View Post
    For example:
    If example explorer is separate project on github, I have some demos which I'd like to share - using ext.net with webapi and odata, how to handle datetime etc. But nowdays I don't know how to share/contribute.
    Agree, it would be excellent. But posting examples directly on the forums is also good.
    http://forums.ext.net/forumdisplay.p...les-and-Extras

    Quote Originally Posted by PetrSnobelt View Post
    Maybe you could inspire by the umbraco cms system (www.umbraco.org). It's open source, and has very friendly and helpfull comunity, which helps move it forward. They make money by payed learning tutorials, extra tools and premium support.
    Thank you for the link. We will look at.
  6. #16
    I understand why you are doing what you are doing. I believe people who work hard deserve to get paid. Thats why i purchased a full license because your product saves me alot of time.

    However, that being said, i would of not bothered into trying out your product had it not seen the free version. ( a loose loose situation for both side )

    my recommendation:

    Option 1
    why not keep the community version but stop development at the current version. ( no more features, no more updates, thats it )

    and full version will be the only product you work on and support.

    That way atleast for limited time people can try your product, and see how great it is .

    Option 2
    Keep the limited community version , what i mean is , a version that is missing of full version features. ( ie you can put datagrid on full version ) and only respond to community questions on stackoverflow, that way you build more traffic and awareness. people then can try your full and purchase a license


    hopfully this helps,

    p.s

    hey if you make money from either of these ideas i wanna cut lol (j/k i dont :P )
  7. #17
    Hi Amir,

    Thank you for the feedback! Especially, thank you for buying a Pro bundle:)

    Regarding your concerns. No worries, anyone will be able to try Ext.NET without purchasing a license for unlimited time.

    Geoffrey stated it here.
    http://forums.ext.net/showthread.php...l=1#post104844

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffrey.mcgill View Post
    Just to clarify, the Ext.NET Pro license allows for unlimited local development and testing. No 'Unlicensed' message is rendered until you move the application off a Development box and onto and server. You are free to use Ext.NET Pro for learning, testing and development for as long as you wish. Only after you're ready to 'go live' is a license required.

    If someone is legitimately in position where purchasing an Ext.NET Pro license is just not possible, please feel to email me directly (geoff@object.net) and we can discuss the situation.
  8. #18

    Community License Ignites the Forum...

    Just one thing to keep in mind. We have found most of our solutions using the Forum. Once there is no Community License, a lot of people will simply move to other Frameworks and stop contributing.

    So if this move is decided, then you guys better pump support and documentation. Having a samples page is not enough. And I don't mean to sound like a threat or anything.

    What I am saying is, you guys stop being a community company and become an Enterprise Software company, a lot of things on your side have to change. But not everything is bleak. Follow Xamarin's lead on how they do documentation and support and everything will be cool.
  9. #19

    What made me buy the license

    All i can say is that what made me buy the license was the opportunity that you guys gave us to explore this product, and since i wanted to contribute to your company's growth i decided to buy it, but it'd be a shame for the people that want to learn, explore new things.

    Honestly i was part of the open source community and the need to have a more consistent support from you guys made me ask my boss to buy the license, but like i said, i started with open source version, made me learn the way ext.net worked and apply it to my study projects, and I'm sure that i'm not the only one that can take this step from being part of the community version to premium, so in a kind of way you'd be missing those potential buyers.

    That's all i can say, i hope you guys stay the same.

    Sincerely yours

    Chris.
  10. #20
    Hi @jphms and Chris,

    Thank you very much for your feedback!

    Please look at my post just before your ones.

    Does it not dispel your concerns?
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