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Vladimir
Apr 01, 2008, 7:30 AM
<DIV id=result_box dir=ltr>Hello everyone,

I would be very grateful if you share one's your opinions: How important to you design mode support in Coolite toolkite? How often do you use design mode of VS in its developers activities?

Thanks in advance

dukefama
Apr 01, 2008, 7:47 AM
Sincerely, In my own opinion, I feel design time support is for people who are more like trying to get in the mix of things. I work mostly in HTML mode. It is not very comfortable but it is faster and more effective and it shows you a loot of stuff you might not even notice in the documentation. It is like working in MS word with the reveal codes on, you find things faster that way.
Conclusion, I hardly use design time support.

cecilphillip
Apr 01, 2008, 11:18 AM
I'm a fairly new asp.net developer; less than year w/ asp.net but over 3 with C# and client side .net apps. For me the design time tools are a 50-50. I almost never rely on the design time support solely. I believe a healthy balance of both source editing and automated tools are essential, especially for projects with strict time restraints.

The automated design tools definitelly give me the ability to put together a quick proof of concept. Yet, I always end up editing source just as equality. I suppose its really depends on the developer and what he/she is more efficient with. A lot of time I find the generated code contains unneed declarations (unneed for some of my purposes anyway ) and results in your application being heavier than it needs to be.

Design time support is very important for early adopters since it gives them an introduction to the power of the tools in question. The easier the components are to use, the more inclined the early adopters would be willing to use them again and again (thats how this newbie got into this web development thing in the first place). Then, they will eventually find thier healthy balance of source editing and design time automation.

Hope this helps......

Chelonian
Apr 01, 2008, 7:01 PM
I usually dont use nor like the design view in Visual Studio. It usually gives you crappy code and messes up all the source code in a page.

mthakershi
Apr 02, 2008, 2:33 PM
Design mode is extremely important. With all respect, no matter what these 'notepad' experts say, this product without full design-time support is worthless for 99% of programming community.

Just my opinion based on around 100 ASP.NET programmers I know. Thank you.

jchau
Apr 25, 2008, 5:26 PM
I think Design Mode Support should not be top priority in regards to getting new versions out. The reason is that Design Mode Support is not necessary when using the controls. To some, it's an extra nice feature but I think it's safe to say most experienced programmers can use the Source View to accomplish the same thing. I personally never switch to Design View because it's slow and useless.

mthakershi
Apr 25, 2008, 6:06 PM
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Bottom-line: most programmers are not experts. If the product is to become commercially viable (if that is the goal at all), it has to have 100% design mode support. Nothing against anyone who exclusively use 'source view' but without designer support this will be just one of the many partially complete gizmos on the web.

jchau
Apr 25, 2008, 6:16 PM
mthakershi (4/25/2008)
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Bottom-line: most programmers are not experts. If the product is to become commercially viable (if that is the goal at all), it has to have 100% design mode support. Nothing against anyone who exclusively use 'source view' but without designer support this will be just one of the many partially complete gizmos on the web.

I totally agree that in the end, 100% design mode support is needed. But initially, I rather Coolite focus on getting their controls released and worry about design mode support later. For example, I don't want to wait an extra month for the the grid control because they have to put in design mode support. Top priority should be to convert the extjs controls to .NET counterparts with the main functionalities.

tongyang
Apr 26, 2008, 10:35 PM
I'll be honest. I don't use design view at all.

Masher
May 06, 2008, 2:25 PM
I like design mode a lot and I certainly think it should be included for every control, but I don't think it should hold up the release cycle if it's possible to include a working control without it. In that situation people who aren't bothered about having the designer get the control, and those who are waiting for the designer wouldn't see it anyway. The only thing to worry about is delaying the visual designer elements in favour of the control when they could really be completed.

If however you think you could have all of Ext covered a year faster with no designer elements then I'd be tempted to think again.

loihai
May 06, 2008, 10:00 PM
mthakershi (4/2/2008)Design mode is extremely important. With all respect, no matter what these 'notepad' experts say, this product without full design-time support is worthless for 99% of programming community.

Just my opinion based on around 100 ASP.NET programmers I know. Thank you.

Hmm.. The current ExtJS framework has no design-time support... and it is one of the top frameworks out there.

Design-time support, in my opinion, is a luxury; it's nice to have, but in no way is absolutely needed for programmers. The current Coolite controls already have FULL intellisense support in Visual Studio's Source view, and that for me is more than I could ever ask for, and we thank you for that ^_^

I think it is more important to get the bulk of ExtJS to work in ASP.NET first, and then work on the design-time support where needed.

matteo
May 07, 2008, 6:56 AM
Design Time support would contribute to give a more complited product, but not important to me! Then about the code, I do agree with what Chelonian said.

dukefama
May 07, 2008, 7:28 AM
I totally agree with what lohail said. If design time support will not make available on time then it can become a future feature.

creatif
May 07, 2008, 4:25 PM
Personally, I'm quite comfortable working in source view -- I've created &amp; coded very complex Ext-based front-ends with Aptana (no design help).

However, I think design-time support can be helpful when it comes to dealing with Properties -- it is a frequent occurence in VS2008 that I have to click over to design view when interacting with some objects (say, objectdatasource and others) to view ALL Properties for the object (like Events associated with that object/component).

Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see the whole Ext toolkit available in VS.

ljcorreia
Jun 04, 2008, 2:36 PM
I think Design mode support is important for Coolite as it was well said here in this site home page:

"The suite of web controls were built with a focus on bringing full Visual Studio Design-Time support to the Ext JavaScript Framework".

That means, this is the focus, and it will be very important to the company in the market as a product for ASP.NET developers.

On the other hand, I can see that the team is endeavour to finish this design mode support to release in the 0.5 version. But I don't think it is so important that justify such delay in the version release in order to have it done. It just my personal opinion.

There are many other important resources to be explored.
Another important thing to mention is that Design Mode reduce the learning curve of a framework, as it makes easy to test properties and combine options on the solution.
However, that learning curve can also be reduced by a good documentation and good examples.

The SandBox in this site is the best idea to show how to accomplish it.

I hope that helps or make you gyus think about this release we are all anxious waiting.

Best regards,

Leonardo.

geoffrey.mcgill
Jun 05, 2008, 1:55 PM
http://www.ext.net/download/

conman
Jul 07, 2008, 9:23 AM
I think from a product perspective, design time support is defintely needed. Mostly to engage the core of .NET developers who would be interacting with Coolite.

However, design time support development is complex (unless thats your thing) thus increasing time for the controls release. Personally, I hardly ever use design time features (for reasons already stated by others) and would like to see individual controls released before they are fully supported in design time. Even if its a seperate installation which we need to keep updated ourselves as each development revision has been released would work for me.

This would make both sides happy (design time developers vs non-design time developers) as the official realesed version toolkit would fully support design time capabilities; while allowing us to interact with controls that work but not fully supported.

pkellner
Sep 24, 2008, 12:15 PM
I agree with the opinion that design time support should be last. Having everything functionally working well first is much more important. That being said, if you want this product to be adopted by asp.net programmers (not ExtJS programmers), you will need significant design time support, and for myself, I would use it.

For example, when I create an <ext:store> It feels silly to be typing all the datafield names which are all available from reflector from any of the data source controls. Same thing with Grid. I wonder if there is stuff in MONO you can use?

At anyrate, I feel a little bad complaining because of the wealth of stuff that's in the package already. This is more, "it would be nice" kind of comment.

XuxoVanHalen
Oct 09, 2008, 7:37 PM
Design mode is important, but is not a priority.

stkmks
Oct 09, 2008, 9:35 PM
Given the richness of whats exposed in the objects, without solid documentation, and fuller examples, id say that design mode is an absolute priority!

Trying to work out whats possible in objects (or to guess your way into getting a control to work being new to coolite and extjs) is much easier to do in the properties window than paging though an autocomplete list.


2 cents.

cecilphillip
Oct 10, 2008, 9:20 PM
I second that. Documentation, Documentation, Documentation !!

plykkegaard
Nov 06, 2011, 8:42 AM
I am using codebehind stuff in asp.net and a few sporadic elements in markup, mostly to register css and scripts
The support for generating and interaction with objects in codebehind and classes is very important for my projects

I have never used design mode and are not going to use it until Visual Studio starts to leave my markup as is and not tamper with it when the files are saved (it is getting far better than ever before)
Due to the complexity of the design elements this will likely not happen in my lifetime

The Demos section (http://examples2.ext.net/), the Ext.NET forums, the Sencha/ExtJS forums (http://www.sencha.com/forum/) and the Ex.NET (http://docs.ext.net/)/ExtJS documentation (http://docs.sencha.com/ext-js/3-4/) has helped me a lot during my many late night endeavours


Thanks /Peter